Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Anything related to the tools Tap2Wav, Tap2CD, Tap2Dsk, Sedoric Disc Manager, Tape Header Creator, WriteDsk, and generaly speaking tools related to the management of Oric data files and devices.
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Dbug
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Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Dbug »

I was doing some preparatory work for my next video, about Lothlorien, and I was trying the game "Paras" with the .tap from oric.org... and after I managed to kill one of the ennemies the game crashed with a "quantity error line 25xxxx" and then promptly rebooted.

Since I have the original, I wanted to give a try at converting it to a .tap, but since the toolchain is not super easy to use, I decided to instead try something easier:
  • Load the game from the tape on the real Oric and make sure it does not start
  • Save to one of the .HFE files on the gotek
  • Copy the .HFE to the PC
  • Somewhat find a way to get the file out of the .HFE
I tried the HxCFloppyEmulator.exe to convert back the .HFE to a .DSK (the tool crashed)
I was wondering if Oric Dsk Manager somewhat could read the .HFE... it does not
I was wondering if Orictron could somewhat load a .HFE... it does not
I could have tried Erebus, but it could not load from tape and save to SD card (that would be cool!)

Which bring the question: What's the best way to get the file from the gotek :D ?

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Symoon
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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Symoon »

The version on Oric.org is the transfer done by Jean. It claims "no transfer errors" (meaning "no transfer errors detected").
Did you try playing it on ROM 1.0?
Sometimes, problems can be easily fixed ;)
Loading on a real Oric is not the best to be sure you end with an error-free file.

Now the topic is how to transfer from HFE, this I have no idea.

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by ThomH »

What vintage HFE file is it? Clock Signal can handle version 1.1 HFE files, which are the final documented version but by no means the current version. So if it's a version 1.1 or 1.0 file then I should be able to convert to DSK and post it back to you.

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Dbug »

Symoon wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:45 pm
The version on Oric.org is the transfer done by Jean. It claims "no transfer errors" (meaning "no transfer errors detected").
Did you try playing it on ROM 1.0?
Sometimes, problems can be easily fixed ;)
Loading on a real Oric is not the best to be sure you end with an error-free file.
I've not tried on 1.0, my idea I was to transfer my version and compare the two .tap files.

I first tried to sample the wav files, but I've gave up: I was not able to find a version of wavclean / wav2tap / etc... that runs on Windows 64.

A single program that could accept whatever wav file you have (not only "8bit mono 4.8kz") and outputs a .tap file would be nice to have.

@ThomH: I'm looking at a long term solution that works efficiently to transfer a large number of programs, not specifically "this" one particular HFE file. It's great the ClockSignal supports HFE, is there a ready to use Windows version that you would consider usable that has the HFE support and would be able to CSAVE to a .TAP file?

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Symoon »

Dbug wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:10 am
I first tried to sample the wav files, but I've gave up: I was not able to find a version of wavclean / wav2tap / etc... that runs on Windows 64.

A single program that could accept whatever wav file you have (not only "8bit mono 4.8kz") and outputs a .tap file would be nice to have.
Strange; the tape tools run fine on 64 bits Windows for something like 8-10 years.
Other option: try loading it with an emulator. Didn't try Oricutron but the latest versions of Euphoric can load any WAV format I think and save at TAP format (but IIRC you don't use it)

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Dbug »

Strange; the tape tools run fine on 64 bits Windows for something like 8-10 years.
Probably if you know where they are located.
Most of the time I reach unsupported pages or forks of Fabrice tools, and there's zero obvious way to know if it's relevant or not.

Do you have valid URls of where the relevant tools (already compiled) are?

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Symoon »

Well it's been here for a while ;)
https://sourceforge.net/projects/euphor ... %20format/

See viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1082#p12487 for the latest "big" release.

I had updated versions in the works (especially to produce SLOW files, and convert STOREed files), but lack of time to test/correct them.

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Dbug »

The problem is not that fabrice has been on source force for a while, the problem is that if I use a search engine and "waveclean.exe oric" the first result is this https://github.com/oric-international/o ... wav_format with "oric international" and "
oric-tools" in the name.

I'm not quite sure how github works, but it would be nice if this guy could either:
- Remove this repository
- Change the name
- Clearly indicate that his fork is out of date and point to the sourceforge link

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by iss »

This "oric-international" repository at github is created by DF-user norik but I think it's already abandoned.
norik was very active and big Oric fan in the past (last post here 2014.04.20) ... :(

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by ThomH »

Dbug wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:10 am
@ThomH: I'm looking at a long term solution that works efficiently to transfer a large number of programs, not specifically "this" one particular HFE file. It's great the ClockSignal supports HFE, is there a ready to use Windows version that you would consider usable that has the HFE support and would be able to CSAVE to a .TAP file?
It sounds like the problem has been solved by other means, but had it worked then my intention was to break that code off and turn it into a command-line utility, as I did with dsk2woz. No need to force a whole emulator on people.

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Dbug »

The problem is far from being resolved :)

I got the correct tools, but it's still closer to sorcery than science.

Imo, WavClean/Wav2Tap needs a real time update for the 21st century, where you can load stuff directly from the tape and see dynamically what happens when you change the volume, tweak the azimuth, possibly handle multiple takes/read of the same file and try to find the commonalities between the various attempts at loading.

Having to sample to the right format, use wavclean, use wav2tap, look at the content and see that there's a bunch of typOs BeCAusE soME bITs Are CHangINg... not fun at all :)

I'm not quite sure what would be the best language/framework to do that, maybe actually some VST/pluggin would be ideal, could use the existing handling of sound cards and UI framework instead of reinventing the wheel, and benefit from whatever filters are available in the software.

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Symoon »

Dbug wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:25 pm
Imo, WavClean/Wav2Tap needs a real time update for the 21st century, where you can load stuff directly from the tape and see dynamically what happens when you change the volume, tweak the azimuth
Any new tool would be cool - pleaaaaaaaase keep the parity error checking ;)

About real time, have you tried Load Vader on real Oric?
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1755&p=16564&hilit ... der#p16166
Not perfect (not handling saved screens), but helps cheking the tape input quality by displaying live the parity errors.
possibly handle multiple takes/read of the same file and try to find the commonalities between the various attempts at loading.
That would be cool. Not easy, well I mean: beyond my programming skills.
Having to sample to the right format, use wavclean, use wav2tap
That not so hard ;)
Also has an advantage: you can sometimes fix specific mistakes on the tape by editing the WAV file right where there are errors. Well, this requires a bit of time and black magic, I admit, but it helped me saving a few rare tapes ;)
look at the content and see that there's a bunch of typOs BeCAusE soME bITs Are CHangINg...
Unless you really are unlucky, you should have been warned by some parity errors!

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Dbug »

Well yes, there was parity errors, and no, the process is not complicated, it's just very slow, requiring you to record, check parity problem, adjust, record, check, adjust record checkkkkkkk kdkdddsfgdsjgølkjsdafgkldsjfglødsajfgløsdfjglsdfgdfg... I've some patience for interesting stuff, but that's just boring :)

I could try Load Vader, but there's a certain difference between loading on an oric and recording from a sound card, so no matter what, the input volume would be different, or things would have to be adjusted, no?

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Re: Using a Gotek to archive tape games?

Post by Symoon »

Dbug wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:37 pm
Well yes, there was parity errors, and no, the process is not complicated, it's just very slow, requiring you to record, check parity problem, adjust, record, check, adjust record checkkkkkkk kdkdddsfgdsjgølkjsdafgkldsjfglødsajfgløsdfjglsdfgdfg... I've some patience for interesting stuff, but that's just boring :)
:D
Acutally when there are no errors (and not 13543 parts), it can be rather fast once you've practiced a few times. You can even group wavclean + wav2tap into a single BAT file if you don't want to play with parameters.
But I 100% agree that, when problems start to occur, it can quickly be hell (that's actually partly why I wrote Load Vader).

That being said with multiple tries, I enjoy having each recording (WAV) with its results archived.
I think "live" would be cool to adjust things to get a correct sound, but to solve lighly-damaged tape problems, WAVs will be easier in an investigation / correction / test process.
I could try Load Vader, but there's a certain difference between loading on an oric and recording from a sound card, so no matter what, the input volume would be different, or things would have to be adjusted, no?
Well to be honest I haven't loaded a tape directly on a real Oric for maybe 10 or 15 years now ;) I'm always recording them into WAV files now, to make TAPs of them, or to toy with the WAV, trying to make it better for the Oric to load.

Now there's indeed a difference between loading on an Oric (based on tape input + ROM real-time code) and using wavclean/wav2tap (based on counting WAV samples). Oric seems sometimes a bit more "cool", but you can't be sure the loading was reliable (hence Load Vader). And sometimes, wavclean/wav2tap will be more cool. Black magic indeed.

I forgot that Progress v1.3, the tape loading progress bar, also displays parity errors live. But Atmos only.

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