Copyrights, rights and similar things

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Chema
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Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Chema » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:17 pm

Hi everyone. Tonight I'd like to ask your opinion about something.

I have recently witnessed a sad discussion in a Spanish forum about the copyrights of old QL software. The thing is that somebody has the rights of a huge amount of old QL software and is forbidding any kind of distribution, as he from time to time sells packs with this software in his website.

I do not care if people do this kind of things. It’s perfectly understandable and licit, and I don’t criticize (why should I?) this point of view. Even if I may not fully agree.

However, I asked someone who knows a bit about the regulations and legislation of rights and warned me that, as an example, it was possible that somebody could get any of the soft in defence-force (including sources), make a small adaptation (a translation or some variation) and sell it and it would be quite difficult to prevent this, as it states the soft is free (which could be understood as public domain).

And that is another completely different story.

I would be very upset if I find someone in ebay or a similar site selling a physical edition of my games or a version of Space:1999 for another computer, for instance.

I have never been worried at all about this kind of issues. Who would be interested in doing such a thing for the Oric with my games after all? But I received several requests lately to port games such as Space:1999 to other platforms and also somebody asked about the possibility of having some kind of physical edition of these games or disks containing collections of games. Even some suggested such collections could be sold even if it were just to cover costs and inconveniences

So I wonder if it could be possible to add a Creative Commons license to Defence-Force’s software. Maybe using the creative commons website (http://creativecommons.org/) to create one with rights of free distribution but never with commercial purposes?

I would even say that we forbid adaptations unless they are distributed with the same rights as the original, giving full credit to us (with links to the originals too) and maybe even with permission. Of course any derived work should be also fully compatible with all the original IP rights: Stormlord, Skooldaze, Mission Impossible, Space: 1999, Blake 7, etc... are all based on intellectual properties we do not own.

What do you think?

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Chema » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:58 pm

I just noticed that with so much editing this sentence ended up misplaced and might be misinterpreted:
Chema wrote: I do not care if people do this kind of things. It’s perfectly understandable and licit, and I don’t criticize (why should I?) this point of view. Even if I may not fully agree.
What I mean is that I understand and don't criticize people who want to sell their software for old machines making more or less money in the process (hardware guys do this a lot of times). I strongly criticize people who get their hands on the distribution rights (sometimes doubtful rights in addition) of old software just to make profit out of it. And more those who want to make profit with the work of others, just adding questionable value in the manner of physical disk or box, or small adaptations, or collections.

But I would really appreciate to know what others in the community think about this. Come on! share your point of view and let's have a small discussion about it!

Would you like to see a Creative Commons license in the Defence-Force games? Would you rather prefer them as completely free software?

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by coco.oric » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:43 pm

A good, and quite politic subject.

I agree with you, i'm not aligned with people who're buying licences of old software to make money with them.
I think that these practises will ended with the disparition of old software because it will not be allowed to share them (old softwares have a life with emulators, everyone can discover these ideas and game stories)

Even if i think that the free distribution (with cc licence) of software is a good thing for our small communities, i don't care if the author want to sell his product (with a physic distribution) ; for example, i've participated in the bug hunting of an apple ii game which is now on ebay (http://www.ebay.it/itm/191901700568?ssP ... 1558.l2649)

I think that a good mix could be :
- selling a few number of the game on ebay (physically), with bonus like daniele has done for his apple game, where the more motivated people on earth can buy it with an huge amount of money
- selling a bigger number of physical copies of the game at a symbolic price. and there ... it's very difficult ! what is the value of this pack ? 10, 20, 30 ?
. i've seen this amiga game : tanks furry (http://amiga.net.pl/index.php?lng=eng&kwt=10010&tms=42) which cost between 10 and 15 euros (including shipping)
. athanor for oric has been sold around 30 euros
i think that it's a very good thing if software is published with a physical package. it's better for the life of our computers
- put a dsk/tap version of the game free on an internet site (with some cc licence or not).

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Chema » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:54 pm

Yes Didier. We agree :)

I am seriously considering adding a cc license to my games at least. You know there are different variations. I was considering:

Attribution-NonCommercial
CC BY-NC

This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work non-commercially, and although their new works must also acknowledge you and be non-commercial, they don’t have to license their derivative works on the same terms.

Or
Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
CC BY-NC-SA

This license lets others remix, tweak, and build upon your work non-commercially, as long as they credit you and license their new creations under the identical terms.

I am not sure how this would apply to the rights we don't own, anyway.

What do you think?

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Dbug » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:24 pm

coco.oric wrote:Even if i think that the free distribution (with cc licence) of software is a good thing for our small communities, i don't care if the author want to sell his product (with a physic distribution) ; for example, i've participated in the bug hunting of an apple ii game which is now on ebay (http://www.ebay.it/itm/191901700568?ssP ... 1558.l2649)
I think the idea is not to restrict the author of the game/demo/whatever, but instead to restrict what other people can do with it.

I've no problem with Chema or Twilighte wanting to monetize their games (assuming they are original IPs, not ports of old games), what I don't want is people selling my games and demos and make a profit out of it under some fallacious claims such as "you know it takes time to find all these games" or "I tested that they all work with the emulator" or "it's ready to use, practical for users!".

In the case of the Apple II game you speak of, I hope it was clear from the start that the author was planning to make a commercial game?

I did a bit of work on Athanor, I knew the game would be commercial, I got an original version as payment, which I think is fair. (I would have been less happy if I had helped somebody, who decide later to make the game for a profit without crediting or sharing the profit with people who helped).

Complex subject indeed :)

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Godzil » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:29 pm

The CC license does not apply well to code, but works well for all the data.
But you can use a MIT/BSD license adding a non commercial clause.

Cf: https://wiki.creativecommons.org/index. ... oftware.3F

But I would NOT recommend any polluting license ala GPL. Anyway, a non commercial clause is not compatible with the GPL.

Using a CC-NC[-BC][-SA] does not restrict the original author to do whatever he want with his code, including selling it.

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by coco.oric » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:01 am

In the case of the Apple II game you speak of, I hope it was clear from the start that the author was planning to make a commercial game?
I don't remember ... and it's not a problem for me. Two years ago, he shared his sourcecode. Testing his software was a nice adventure. And ... he put the tester's names on the game booklet :), and said that he'll share the disk image after selling the 100 copies of the game.
I did a bit of work on Athanor, I knew the game would be commercial, I got an original version as payment, which I think is fair
I agree. It's a good reward.


In Creative Commons V4.0, i think that this could be a good option : CC BY-NC-ND 4.0
"Share — copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format
The licensor cannot revoke these freedoms as long as you follow the license terms."

"Attribution — You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made. You may do so in any reasonable manner, but not in any way that suggests the licensor endorses you or your use.
NonCommercial — You may not use the material for commercial purposes.
NoDerivatives — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material.
No additional restrictions — You may not apply legal terms or technological measures that legally restrict others from doing anything the license permits."
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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Silicebit. » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:36 pm

Dbug wrote:I think the idea is not to restrict the author of the game/demo/whatever, but instead to restrict what other people can do with it.

I've no problem with Chema or Twilighte wanting to monetize their games (assuming they are original IPs, not ports of old games), what I don't want is people selling my games and demos and make a profit out of it under some fallacious claims such as "you know it takes time to find all these games" or "I tested that they all work with the emulator" or "it's ready to use, practical for users!".
Dbug explained it very well, Chema is trying to prevent that other persons make profits with fruit of his efforts without his permission.

Dbug wrote:... (I would have been less happy if I had helped somebody, who decide later to make the game for a profit without crediting or sharing the profit with people who helped).
I would have been less happy too. :-)

I agree with coco.oric, i think that CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 is better option.
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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Dbug » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:17 pm

coco.oric wrote:In Creative Commons V4.0, i think that this could be a good option : CC BY-NC-ND 4.0
(...)
NoDerivatives — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material.
Does that not imply that nobody can use our source code to port it to another platform, say C64 or Apple II?

That's the thing with licences, it's never super clear in practice (for me) what can and cannot be done :)

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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Silicebit. » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:02 pm

When you are doing modifications to source code of another person and you redistribute it, you are doing a derivative software from original. To port a game or application to another platform, you must modify the source code to adapt it to the new platform. Then you are doing a derivative software.

The license CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 does not allow to redistribute the derivative software, (ND = NoDerivatives — If you remix, transform, or build upon the material, you may not distribute the modified material.)
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Re: Copyrights, rights and similar things

Post by Hialmar » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:08 am

I agree that putting a licence is a good thing.

As for the specifics and the legalese, honestly who is going to start a legal case against something that earns so little money ?

So basically it's more of a way to frighten petty thieves. Like car alarms. ;)
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